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01-10-2010, 7:57 AM Pim206Gti Joined on 11-26-2009 Netherlands, Europe Posts 71 Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T I was wondering if the instrument clusters of the 500 and the 650 are interchangable ? On the CX500TC there is an voltage regulator for 7Volt. I cannot find it on the CX650T. On the CX500TC this regulator is used for the coolant temperature and the fuel quantity gauges. Strangly the corresponding sensors are the same on both types. I have seen on the partslist manual that the instruments diver between them. So is the voltage regulator on the CX650T incorporated into the gauges? The manual of the CX650T states that you cannot aplly 12V because they work on 7V Pim Honda CBX1000 A ( exploded in my garage ) Honda CX500 Turbo ( summer fun ) Honda CB450S ( cheap - winter fun ) Golden boomerang wheels rock ............    Report

01-11-2010, 3:14 PM George in Indiana Joined on 03-03-2006 Posts 954 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T I just compared manuals and I think there may be some screwy carry over from the 500T manual. The 650T schematic doesn't show a 7 volt regulator but it does show one in a drawing box that's identical to the 500T manual. The 500T manual shows the 7 volt feed from the regulator going to the temp and fuel gauges but with no indication of what color that wire is. On my 500T it's green/black (rebuilt my regulator last summer). Now in the 650T schematic, the feed appears to be black/brown which also feeds several 12 volt idiot lights, tach and boost meter. Following black/brown goes back to fuse C which is labeled neutral and oil. They appear to be 12 volt gauges? Even if the dash fits it won't be an easy plug 'n play operation. CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO '04 GSX1300R Hayabusa    Report

01-13-2010, 2:36 PM Don in Oz Joined on 03-10-2006 Melbourne, Australia Posts 546 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T George, This is a bit off-topic, but the same "difference" between the CX500EC (Sport) and the CX650ED (Euro) seems to happen. The CX500EC (1982) has a 12 to 7 volt regulator for the fuel level and the termperature gauges, and it's a solid state one screwed to the back of the instrument cluster (which is very much the same general shape as the turbo cluster). The CX650ED shows NO regulator on the circuit diagram - and, indeed, there isn't a regulator to be found anywhere near the instrument cluster. The 650s sensors ARE all the SAME as the 500s (which are definitely 7 volt items - put 12 volts on them, and they "fry" quite quickly). The clue is that when you look at the back of the instrument cluster, there is one more screw terminal on either the fuel meter or the temperature meter, and, built inside one of the units (I forget which one it is inside of - it's about 4 years since I had both instrument clusters alongside each other) is a bi-metalic strip voltage regulator - it's the absolute WORST change Honda ever made to the 650s. These things are NOT reliable, and, if you put an analogue voltmeter on the output of one, you'll see what I mean - they "regulate" the output voltage to between about 5.5 volts and 9 volts, in wide surges. Sure, the average may be close to 7 volts, but no where near as good as the solid state regulator of the 500. So, that's where the 650s "regulator" may be on the 650 turbo. You can - in fact - interchange the 500EC and 650ED instrument clusters without damaging the sensors, but the tacho and speedo have different calibrations. Don. GL500I, CX500TC (2), CX500EC (2), 1982 CX500C. GL1000, 1976 CB550F, CT110 (2), XL125S (2), 1973 CB175K6. Kwaka Z250C1 (2). Suzuki GS450SX, DR250SJ, GS125ESD.    Report

01-13-2010, 5:17 PM George in Indiana Joined on 03-03-2006 Posts 954 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T Interesting. Next time I open the front of the 650 I'll have to take a look. Can that meter be opened up for access to the regulator? Finding an individual 650 meter would not be fun. The schematic shows the 12 volt feed going to the fuel meter first and appears to run parallel to the temp meter. I would assume there would be a 4th screw that runs to the temp meter that the schematic doesn't show? If so, I wonder if the terminal that takes the 12 volts could just be abandoned and an external 7 volt source applied to the terminal that connects the two meters? It's like Honda went out of their way to make nothing compatible between the 500 and 650. CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO '04 GSX1300R Hayabusa    Report

01-13-2010, 6:23 PM CXTURBOBOOST Joined on 05-02-2007 Lincoln, NE Posts 440 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T "It's like Honda went out of their way to make nothing compatible between the 500 and 650. " Remember... Two separate engineering teams. Not the same bike at all! Pete    Report

01-13-2010, 9:09 PM Don in Oz Joined on 03-10-2006 Melbourne, Australia Posts 546 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T Once you remove the gauge from the instrument cluster main "chassis", it's very easy to open it up to see the darned "thing" inside. The 12 volts appears to go directly to the gauge, but it's regulated down inside, and a wire runs across to the other gauge with the "7" volts. You should be able to run a normal 12-7volt regulator direct to that "bridge" wire, and NOT connect the direct 12 volts at all. Don. GL500I, CX500TC (2), CX500EC (2), 1982 CX500C. GL1000, 1976 CB550F, CT110 (2), XL125S (2), 1973 CB175K6. Kwaka Z250C1 (2). Suzuki GS450SX, DR250SJ, GS125ESD.    Report

01-14-2010, 1:29 PM George in Indiana Joined on 03-03-2006 Posts 954 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T True there were two different design teams but I don't understand the process they used. Why make two parts that look the same but are different? What did it cost to make different fuel meters when the initial design would have worked for both? The bonnet above the headlight looks identical on both models until you take measurements. I'm sure the extra tooling cost for that couldn't have been cheap. In addition to extra manufacturing costs for parts, they now had to keep a separate inventory for each bike. I can understand changes for improved performance or to correct fail prone items (first year bugs) but the CXTs were designed around the same time and if one part design worked for both, why make two? It would be cool to get an interview with one of the higher ups involved in the projects back then. CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO '04 GSX1300R Hayabusa    Report

01-14-2010, 1:52 PM phogroian Joined on 01-23-2009 Falls Church, VA USA Posts 95 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T It is mind boggling how mant parts are different fron the 500 and 650.  Not every change was for the better- I prefer fiberglass fairings to ABS, and look at what a debacle the 650 starter redesign was.  Why throw such a mind bending amount of money into re-engineering the 500T just to make a limited amount of 650s?  The amount of money lost on on the 650 must have been phenominal.  I saw a high serial number 650T that was wearing the bolt-on helmet lock of the 500T instead if the one that is integral to the grab bar.  I took it as a sign that they never intended to produce many 650TDs ran out of parts, and used some surplus 500T parts instead.  I thing a list of parts that are the same would be shorter than a list of parts that are different!    Report

04-30-2010, 4:32 AM Pim206Gti Joined on 11-26-2009 Netherlands, Europe Posts 71 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T I obtained a CX650T instrument cluster, the main reason was that my bike was imported from the USA with a restricted spedo and in miles per hour indication. I tried a direct swap. Everything functioned well except the tachometer which didn't work at all. I am not sure if the Tacho is good because this instrument cluster has been lying on a shelf for the last 20 years or so.  The only differance I could find between the CX500tc and CX650T Tacho was that the face of the CX500Tc has a indication up to 10.000 rpm and the CX650T has an indication up to 9000 rpm and then starts the red area. Also a small differance is that the indication needle of the CX650T was orange while the CX500tc was more white but that can also come because of long exposure to sunlight. Honda CBX1000 A ( exploded in my garage ) Honda CX500 Turbo ( summer fun ) Honda CB450S ( cheap - winter fun ) Golden boomerang wheels rock ............    Report

04-30-2010, 6:15 AM CXTURBOBOOST Joined on 05-02-2007 Lincoln, NE Posts 440 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T It really shouldn't suprise anyone... The wiring harnesses are different, the computer is different, almost all electrical is different, ignition system, suspension,...etc, etc, etc,....Totally different bike, just has the same look for characteristics...    Report

05-01-2010, 1:35 AM Pim206Gti Joined on 11-26-2009 Netherlands, Europe Posts 71 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T  CXTURBOBOOST wrote: It really shouldn't suprise anyone... The wiring harnesses are different, the computer is different, almost all electrical is different, ignition system, suspension,...etc, etc, etc,....Totally different bike, just has the same look for characteristics... I don't agree with you that the CX650T is a complete different bike. I agree that small changes in the design makes parts interchangable difficult but if you look at the overall design it's the same bike. I would believe that the differences between let say a CB900 and a CB1100 are similair. I didn't try to swap the two instrument clusters without a thorough look at the electric schema and the pin layout of the connectors. First the electric schema ( for the instrument cluster ) is exactly the same on both bikes except ( you must have guesed ) the tachometer which on the CX500Tc gets it's signal from the ignitioncoil supply voltage and the CX650T gets it signal from the computer. Then the pin layout, they are 100% the same including the colours used. So from the 13 display features of the instrument cluster only 1 works differently. If we put the total money spend on the CX500Tc on 100% then the CX650T must not have taken more than 20%. So to say that the CX650T is a complete redesign is simply not true. Honda CBX1000 A ( exploded in my garage ) Honda CX500 Turbo ( summer fun ) Honda CB450S ( cheap - winter fun ) Golden boomerang wheels rock ............    Report

05-01-2010, 8:58 AM George in Indiana Joined on 03-03-2006 Posts 954 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T How many parts are 100% identical on both bikes and didn't incur retooling costs?  On this point I'd say the bikes are 98% different. How many parts are different but can still be swapped right out with no modification?  Next to none. How many parts can be made to fit with a lot of work and repainting?  A handful? Imo, Honda went out of their way to make the bikes different in even the smallest details.     CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO '04 GSX1300R Hayabusa    Report

05-01-2010, 6:22 PM CXTURBOBOOST Joined on 05-02-2007 Lincoln, NE Posts 440 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T Almost everything is different...block, pistons, and almost everything engine...Ignition, wiring harness....computer....instrument cluster....suspension.... body work.... How much is the same? Not too much.... I know for a fact that two separate engineering teams were designing the bike, though both were under Inoue.... The 650T was done before the 500T ever hit the dealer showroom... The bikes are almost totally different as George states when you look at the part numbers... Some things interchange, but not many...Even the turbo is a different spec.... Not the same bike at all...And you can feel it when you drive the two. Just my .02 PK    Report

05-02-2010, 1:07 PM Pim206Gti Joined on 11-26-2009 Netherlands, Europe Posts 71 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T  George in Indiana wrote: On this point I'd say the bikes are 98% different.  CXTURBOBOOST wrote: . How much is the same? Not too much.... I think this is more an emontional feeling than a fact. A quick count of the partslists from both machines : CX500TC Partslist : Aprox 1900 lines of items of which 835 have the MC7 code and even there can be found 18 items with a ME7 code ( replacement parts ). CX650T   Partslist : Aprox 1900 lines of items of which 314 have the ME7 code and 440 items  the MC7 code                                 Conclusion aprox 44% of the parts were firstly designed to be used in the CX500 Turbo But more important for the CX650T aprox 17% items were designed new and 23% were used from the CX500TC. So if you would dissameble a CX650T completely and you have a turbo part there is only a 42% change it's a specific CX650TC part I bet that from all specific CX650T parts more then half are parts which are slightly modified ( added hole, moved hole , other paint schema , other used material ) My 5 euro cents ( we no longer use the 2 cents anymore ) Pim Honda CBX1000 A ( exploded in my garage ) Honda CX500 Turbo ( summer fun ) Honda CB450S ( cheap - winter fun ) Golden boomerang wheels rock ............    Report

05-02-2010, 1:41 PM CXTURBOBOOST Joined on 05-02-2007 Lincoln, NE Posts 440 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T You've got a few light bulbs, and wire clips that are the same...all the major components are different.... engine, final drive, computer, ignition, suspension, body work, etc, etc, etc... Honda uses bolts and wire clips, light bulbs, and other misc on many of its other bikes....doesn't make them a CXT...    Report

05-03-2010, 12:43 AM Pim206Gti Joined on 11-26-2009 Netherlands, Europe Posts 71 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T  CXTURBOBOOST wrote: ...all the major components are different.... I agree with different that it's not interchangable. But from an engineering point of view both bikes are almost identical. For example which parts were designed from scratch ? - Mirrors - Handlebar switches - Starter Motor - Rear drive shaft - Oil Pan Which parts produced with a different proces ? - Front upper and lower fairing - Intake tube On the engine what significant things are different ? - Did the change the number of cilinders ? - Changed the cooling from water to air ? - Number of valves per cilinder ? - Pushrod valves to overhead camshaft ? - 1 turbo to 2 ? - Moved location of turbo ? - Final drive from shaft to chain drive ? - Number of gears ? - Camshaft drive from chain to gears ? No, No, No, No ......................... I think I know why there were 2 different design teams on both bikes. This is very common even today. The first teams goal was to deliver the first ever production bike at any cost. The CX650T team had a completely different goal : lean and mean or in other words make this bike cheaper Why an ABS fairing, cheaper on high volumes Why a crappy starter, probable cheaper supplier Why no idle valve, cheaper Why no seperate ignition module , cheaper Why 2 instead of 4 sensors, cheaper ( although I agree 3 pressure sensor should have been enough on the CX500TC ) etc etc Ofcourse Honda doesn't say with an introduction of a new bike that they tried to make it cheaper than it's predecesor. Honda CBX1000 A ( exploded in my garage ) Honda CX500 Turbo ( summer fun ) Honda CB450S ( cheap - winter fun ) Golden boomerang wheels rock ............    Report

05-03-2010, 6:25 AM George in Indiana Joined on 03-03-2006 Posts 954 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T On the engine what significant things are different ? - Did the change the number of cilinders ? Are the cylinders the same?  NO - Changed the cooling from water to air ? Is the cooling system the same?  NO - Number of valves per cilinder ? Are the valves the same?  NO - Pushrod valves to overhead camshaft ? Is the cam the same?  NO - 1 turbo to 2 ? - Moved location of turbo ? Is the turbo the same?  NO - Final drive from shaft to chain drive ? Is the final drive the same?  NO - Number of gears ? Is the transmission the same?  NO - Camshaft drive from chain to gears ? I can use all of the above to say a Sportster is practically the same bike as a Road King.  Actually the Sportster shares the same number of pistons and cylinders, same number of gears and uses pushrods....could the CXT be related?!?  :) CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO '04 GSX1300R Hayabusa    Report

05-04-2010, 2:15 AM Pim206Gti Joined on 11-26-2009 Netherlands, Europe Posts 71 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T Please remind that all of my comments in this matter are made from the view point of a mechanical engineer,not as a customer , not as a service mechanic. My points is that the story that Honda totally redesigned the CX650T is from an engineering point simply not true. The great feat of the CX500Tc is not the CX engine design, it's not the turbo design, it's not EFI , they were already around . The true engineering feat of the Honda Turbo is the integration of Motorcycle - Turbo - EFI. Once this was done, to create an other bike ( CX650T ) was simple and straight forward and no relative hugh cost were involved,  engineering wise or tooling wise. I am not saying that it is possible that Honda lost a lot of money on this bike. It's the same as the Wright Brothers once they accived powered controlled flight, it was easy for others to copy the concept and claim the same glory. And yes "George in Indiana" for me ( as an engineer ) the engine of the Sportster is practically the same as a  Road King. For me the differance between a Sportster and a Roadking is a lot of window dressing. I think 98% of members of this forum ( including me ) cannot determine a Honda Turbo engine part if it cam from a CX500TC or a CX650T simply by looking at it. But if this is between a Honda engine and a Harley Davidson engine the bling bling factor will for me decide a lot......... Honda CBX1000 A ( exploded in my garage ) Honda CX500 Turbo ( summer fun ) Honda CB450S ( cheap - winter fun ) Golden boomerang wheels rock ............    Report

05-04-2010, 8:42 AM CXTURBOBOOST Joined on 05-02-2007 Lincoln, NE Posts 440 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T Actually, Very big costs were involved in the 650T engineering because so much was different...The computer was used nowhere else...The block was its own design (heavier for the CXT than the normally aspirated 650) etc, etc, etc, Even the molds for the fairing/hood, etc were different... They couldn't sell the 650T because there were still 500T on the dealers showroom floors...Thus they discontinued production... The 650T was supposed to be the production bike followed by the CX750T... PK    Report

05-05-2010, 2:08 AM Pim206Gti Joined on 11-26-2009 Netherlands, Europe Posts 71 Re: Interchangable instrument cluster CX500TC and CX650T  CXTURBOBOOST wrote: Very big costs were involved in the 650T engineering I kindly agree to disagree in this matter Honda CBX1000 A ( exploded in my garage ) Honda CX500 Turbo ( summer fun ) Honda CB450S ( cheap - winter fun ) Golden boomerang wheels rock ............    Report

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