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CX500 & CX650 Turbo Forum
Started by HomerRod at 08-24-2008 5:38 PM. Topic has 19 replies.
  
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 08-24-2008, 5:38 PM
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HomerRod
Joined on 07-21-2006
Posts 223
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I don't know how deep some of you have ever explored into the ignition system. If I understand things correctly, our Turbos have a CDI system. Basically, a capacitor stores high voltage, and discharges to the coil (capacitor discharge ignition), and the coil steps it up even further before going to the plug. That being said, I would think that if you measured the voltage leaving the ignition module ( the blue and yellow leads) going to each of the coils, it would seem that you would see lots of voltage, like 100v,150,v or 200v. Another thing, I'm not sure if our bikes would produce AC or DC. I have read that most CDI systems produce AC. In my previous post regarding the problem on my 500T, I noticed only battery voltage is present during cranking on the starter. Does this sound right? Maybe one of you has already peformed tests on a correctly operating bike. Maybe spin the engine on the starter and measure the voltage output from the ignition module, and measure it while running (two tests and probably two test results). I'm sure the latter option is not entirely safe, since CDI voltage is high. But if anyone has done this, it would be a great help so in the future we could determine if the module is good or bad by the output readings. I noticed that Honda does not make mention of a CDI unit test in the manual. Just someting to think about, and expand our knowledge base.......Thanks.
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09-01-2008, 11:56 AM
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Don in Oz
Joined on 03-10-2006
Melbourne, Australia
Posts 546
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Rod, I think you will find that the ignition system on a turbo is NOT CDI, but an upgraded version of the TAI system which is on the 1981-onwards CXes and GLs .
Don.
GL500I, CX500TC (2), CX500EC (2), 1982 CX500C.
GL1000, 1976 CB550F, CT110 (2), XL125S (2), 1973 CB175K6.
Kwaka Z250C1 (2).
Suzuki GS450SX, DR250SJ, GS125ESD.
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09-01-2008, 7:12 PM
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HomerRod
Joined on 07-21-2006
Posts 223
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Don:
I strongly suspect my module is failing (right cylinder hitting intermittently, and is slighlty warm. Left cylinder hot. Both plugs black carbon fouled).
Are you sure it's not CDI? I have heard it is CDI, and others have said it is TCI.
What other bikes have used a TAI system. I have never heard of this system.
If possible, can you run some simple voltage input and output tests on your bike and let me know the results? I'm hoping that some known good value's will be a good starting point..............and thanks!! Rod.
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09-02-2008, 12:36 PM
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RichNCT
 
Joined on 03-02-2006
Connecticut, USA
Posts 3,463
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TAI is a more correct designation for what we usually refer to as TI. Our carbureted models with this TI ignition system include '82 CX500C, 81-81 GL500(I), and all CX/GL50s. Referring to carbureted engines again, the TI systems utilize different coils and different in-engine ignition components, as well as different wiring harness circuitry.
Refueling on The James Bay Road, 2009
Born to be relatively wild (for a grampa x 3)
GL650I, CX650E, CX650T
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09-02-2008, 1:14 PM
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gamache
Joined on 06-18-2008
Cambridge, MA
Posts 248
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I thought TAI (transistor-assisted ignition) referred to an upgrade on a distributor, which uses the contact points to trigger a transistor which in turn controls the ignition charge. The transistorized CX/GLs use a system I would call TI or TCI, transistorized (coil) ignition, which involves no mechanical system other than the rotor/stator.
Am I off?
Pete from Boston
1979 CX500 Custom (daily driver)
1982 GL500 Interstate (project)
1964 Raleigh Sports (fixed gear city bike)
CX/GL manuals, schematics, etc: http://ftso.net/cx-gl/
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09-02-2008, 8:14 PM
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RichNCT
Joined on 03-02-2006
Connecticut, USA
Posts 3,463
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I'll defer to your terminology on that one, I can't back up my statement. And you are an EE.  But we are speaking of the same thing, the later ignition system on the CX/GLs not the CDI system. I may have read it in a manual somewhere, or dreamed it, who knows? I have also read somewhere that the TI system is another type of CDI, but I don't repeat that often as it's confusing, and maybe incorrect.
Refueling on The James Bay Road, 2009
Born to be relatively wild (for a grampa x 3)
GL650I, CX650E, CX650T
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09-05-2008, 1:09 AM
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Brian FORD
Joined on 08-25-2007
Harrison, MI, USA
Posts 18
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The two common types of Electronic Ignition systems on the CX/GLs are the Capacitive Discharge Ignition (CDI) and the Induction Ignition system. The CDI unit has circuitry that produces a high voltage spike internally and releases it to the coil for further amplification for the spark. The latter type is also known as a Transistor Ignition (TI) or Transistor Controlled Ignition system (TCI) or even the Transistor Assisted Ignition system that Don mentioned. They are all an inductive ignition system, meaning it uses the collapse of an electric field to create a higher voltage in a coil for the spark. It just uses a transistor rather than a set of mechanical points to do it for advantageous reasons. The semantics of the acronyms make it a little confusing. And they each have pros & cons.
It would not make sense to me to have an ignition system that contained both points and a transistor as they are redundant. But that doesn't mean they weren't made! The mechanical devices were the most troublesome and therefore the weakest link. They did replace points in conventional ignitions with optical devices. But then used the optical devices, and later electromagnetic sensors to trigger a transistor making the entire ignition system electronic.
Transistors are much more precise and consistent in their timing and control. They also can carry more current than mechanical points which will begin arcing and transferring metal from the point surfaces requiring frequent replacement. Transistors were not subject to cam floating as the points were at high RPMs.
The TCI units will give a longer spark duration (in milliseconds) facilitating easier starting and better ignition while the engine is cold, but is not as precise in timing duration for very high RPMs as in racing. Thus the CDI units were developed which produce a very short (microseconds) voltage spike that is good for precise timing for racing performance but was deficient in the cold starting arena.
The TCI units are inductive and produce the high voltage in the coil. Therefore reading the voltage out of the units would give only B+ or what ever your alternator/battery is providing. And during starting, the starter motor consumes a lot of current which reduces the voltage to the coils and plugs. So having a less than fully charged battery reduces not only your engine turnover speed, but the quality of plug spark. However a CDI unit WOULD provide a high voltage to the coil. But whether you have a meter that would react fast enough to read a low OR high voltage spike of only milliseconds or microseconds in duration is doubtful. Coils can be checked with an ohm meter with some precision.
Perhaps the best way to determine the output of the TCI/CDI units is to verify that the plug is sparking.
And like Rich said, the coils of TCI and CDI units are different and must not be interchanged or mixed as damage will result. The primary and secondary resistances will have a different ratio.
The output of an alternator is AC. Each of the 3 phases of ours put out perhaps 60-90VAC. (I've never checked it.) But it all goes to the rectifier/regulator and is converted to ~14.5VDC. A TCI unit is powered with that voltage and when interrupted by the transistor timer, the resultant collapsing electromagnetic field in the primary of the coil, induces a similar current in the secondary coil creating another voltage in that circuit. Having many more windings than the primary, the voltage is greater (though the current produced is smaller) and it goes to ground through the spark plug, sparking along the way.
CDI units produce their own high voltage spike (~150-250V?) to a coil. They are very short duration and are deficient in starting the m/c. Some units now get around that by producing multiple sparks of short duration to increase the chance of ignition when needed. I don't know the circuitry, but to get that result may require using the alternating cycles of an AC voltage. Perhaps that might account for the report of CDIs being AC. That is just supposition.
(1964 Yamaha RD-125)
(1970 & '72 Kawasaki 500cc H1)
1982 Honda GL-500i
1982 Honda CX-500TC x 2
1983 Honda GL-650i
1983 Honda VF-750S
1984 Honda VF-1100S
1984 Kawasaki KZ-550 LTD
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09-05-2008, 9:42 AM
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RichNCT
Joined on 03-02-2006
Connecticut, USA
Posts 3,463
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Brian, very informative, and based on what I have read before, in bits and pieces, your explanations are correct. So the TI system could be called TAI, eh? Thanks for saving the remnants of my sanity, I'm questioning it more every day. 
Refueling on The James Bay Road, 2009
Born to be relatively wild (for a grampa x 3)
GL650I, CX650E, CX650T
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09-07-2008, 6:16 PM
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Don in Oz
Joined on 03-10-2006
Melbourne, Australia
Posts 546
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Rod, You may well have an ignition module that is failing on one side. One of the units, that has passed through my hands here, had needed replacement of both of the high power transistors (which handle the current which saturates the coils). When you know where they are under the potting mixture, they are reasonably easy to uncover and replace, without removing the whole circuit board from the metal case - from memory they reside in the corners adjacent to where the leads come out of the case - try about 1/4" in from each of the metal case sides near those corners.
I think an MJE13009 is a good substitute for most of those power jobs - it may need to be a plastic TO3 instead of the TO220 size of the above type, however.
I am also glad that you have found the loom/sensor adapter to save some time - I certainly did - best $30 I have spent at Honda in a long time.
Brian, Good description of the various systems, thanks.
Don.
GL500I, CX500TC (2), CX500EC (2), 1982 CX500C.
GL1000, 1976 CB550F, CT110 (2), XL125S (2), 1973 CB175K6.
Kwaka Z250C1 (2).
Suzuki GS450SX, DR250SJ, GS125ESD.
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09-10-2008, 8:11 PM
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TheMAXX
Joined on 09-02-2007
Posts 4
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<BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td class="txt4"><img src="/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif"> <strong>HomerRod wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">Don:<br>I strongly suspect my module is failing (right cylinder hitting intermittently, and is slighlty warm. Left cylinder hot. Both plugs black carbon fouled).<br>Are you sure it's not CDI? I have heard it is CDI, and others have said it is TCI.<br>What other bikes have used a TAI system. I have never heard of this system.<br>If possible, can you run some simple voltage input and output tests on your bike and let me know the results? I'm hoping that some known good value's will be a good starting point..............and thanks!! Rod.<br></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
I haven’t read all that you may have written regarding your problem so it may not have anything to do with the problem that I was having. I was having a problem with fouling plugs on my CX500TC and the bike was not running well at all. The bike would only run at high RPMs. The short version of the story is I changed to a 1 step hotter plug and it has been working great ever since.
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02-27-2010, 9:58 PM
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Paulzuki
Joined on 02-28-2010
Posts 1
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Don,
I found your post while searching the web for information on the ignition problem I'm having with my sister's 1980 CX500C. It sounds as though we are experiencing a CDI Module that has failed on one side (only one side is sparking and all the tests I have performed point to a bad module). You mentioned replacing components within the module itself, so I was wondering, first if the information in this post might apply similarly to CDI units as to TI/TAI/etc. units that you all were discussing? If not (or even if so), do you have any tips you might be willing to share regarding module testing and repair? I would simply replace the unit, however I have found replacements rather difficult to locate. The only other option that I can come up with would be to replace the entire ignition system with an aftermarket kit, but unless you guys are keeping it a secret, I haven't come across any such kit for these bikes. Any tips, wisdom, or even snide-but-informative remarks would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Paul
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03-01-2010, 1:18 AM
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Don in Oz
Joined on 03-10-2006
Melbourne, Australia
Posts 546
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Paul,
You are right about CDI modules - the one on a 1980 CX500C will be one that I haven't worked at replacing the coil drivers because they are SCRs, not transistors.
I have had reasonable success in replacing the coil driver on my Suzuki DR250SJ, which has destroyed three "CDI" modules - really that bike has a transistorised- magneto type of ignition. That is where I have used the MJE13009 to lasting effect - now it's the damper diodes that I have to find better replacements for.
The unit I had seen was indeed a TAI-type ignition box for a CX500Turbo, and those were the thoughts and parts placements referred to above/below.
Dick-in-Raleigh and I were working on a replacement circuit board designed to replace the "guts" of the earlier CX500 CDI module, but Dick passed away in mid-2008, after getting about 6 boards made, assembled, and into testing. I have two complete boards here in Oz, one of which I'm about to put into an original case for stringent testing.
The reason we went for complete replacement of the electronics was that component technology has changed immensely since the late 1970s, when the design was made. We looked for the most up-to-date components and Dick designed the board to take them. The real stumbling block was the leads and connectors, and we went for re-using the originals.
I can't find the photos that Dick took, after he un-potted one of the units (it's a VERY difficult thing to do), but I'll try to find some of the documentation, which might have drawings of part placements on the original Honda-unit board.
My repair of the Suzuki modules was facilitated by the fact that most high-voltage transistors fail open circuit, and with the transistors "under" the board on the Suzuki, you just "tack" a new transistor on the easy-to-get-to conductor-side of the board, and all is well.
Unfortunately, most of the SCR failures in the CX500 CDI modules appear to be in the short-circuit mode, and that means you can't just tack a new one onto the board's conductors - you would have to totally remove the board to replace those SCRs.
The big NO-NO on CDI bikes is removal of a plug cap or lead while the bike is running - NEVER do it. The reflected pulse from the ignition coil - when it can't fire across a gap on the high voltage side - will almost certainly destroy that SCR in the CDI module.
Hope some of that helps your understanding of the problem.
Don.
GL500I, CX500TC (2), CX500EC (2), 1982 CX500C.
GL1000, 1976 CB550F, CT110 (2), XL125S (2), 1973 CB175K6.
Kwaka Z250C1 (2).
Suzuki GS450SX, DR250SJ, GS125ESD.
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03-03-2010, 6:08 PM
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HomerRod
Joined on 07-21-2006
Posts 223
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Don is correct. The turbos are not CDI. The easiest way to confirm a CDI system is easy. With the key in the ON position (engine OFF) then a non-CDI system will have battery voltage at the coil. In a CDI system, no voltage will be present, since it has to be discharged in the CDI module first before going to the coil. There is never just 12 volts going to the coil. Very simple. My earlier mistake was equating an electronic ignition as a CDI, but that was incorrect on my part. Sorry...........
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06-19-2010, 3:05 AM
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tim c cook
Joined on 06-19-2010
Posts 2
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Hello - I just found this forum while searching info about these Honda V-twin engines. I am still reading about these engines and so far I have picked up three non-op salvage yard 500 CC engines to play with. The intent is to use some version of these to replace the stock air cooled 4 cylinder VW engine in a Baja buggy Volkswagen bug, mount the engine with the drive shaft pointing to the VW transmission and connect the output of the Honda drive shaft to the input shaft of the VW trans, use the clutch in the engine and leave both transmissions in place, 20 speeds forward and 5 speeds in reverse, should be able to handle both rock crawling and freeways.. I have had several of the early Honda 600 cc 35HP air cooled 2 cylinder Honda cars in the past so I am confident these much higher powered engines will do the job just fine (especially if set up to burn E85), a turboed 650 will be the ultimate but a NA 500 will be the learning curve engine. The engine RPM range in the VW seems to match that of the bike if I use 25% larger off-road tires on the bug.
Ignition systems - From what I am reading the ignition boxes seem to be a weak point for reliability and it looks like there is not yet a readily available replacement for the CDI unit. I was wondering if anyone has tried replacing the later Transistor Controlled Ignition (TCI) box with two of the transistor ignition units from older Chrysler vehicles? These are very robust and available with several different dwell and RPM capabilities, also pretty cheap. They are normally triggered from a reluctor coil in the distributor and they can even be triggered using mechanical points so the stock pickup coils in the 500/650 should also trigger them? For my use in a car it is no problem to simply run one box and coil for each spark plug but it may not be physically practical on a bike.
The following link takes you to a quick overview of the Chrysler transistor ignition units.
http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/electronic.htm
The lower section of the below linked page has more info on using the Chrysler unit as well as Ford and GM transistor ignition modules.
http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/ignition.htm
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06-19-2010, 1:57 PM
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BillRod
Joined on 11-09-2009
Richton Park, IL 33 miles SW of Chicago
Posts 350
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I have installed 2 different CDI systems. One was a heathkit unit on a 1973 Buick 455 and the other on a Yamaha YR1 350 cc two stoke engine. The conventional ignition fires the spark plug when the points break and the coil collapses. The CDI is just the opposite and fires the coil when the capacitor dumps its charge on the coil. Both of these units required that the wiring to the two connections on the coil (not the spark plug wire) be reversed. If you were to look at a graph of the firing of the conventional ignition you would see a long rise time of the voltage before the plug fired compared to the almost straight up rise of the CDI system. The major benefit of the CDI system, especially on 2-stroke engines, is that they will easily fire a fouled plug that the conventional ignition could not fire. I used it on my Yamaha with surface gap plugs and it solved all my 2-stroke plug fouling problems. 4-stroke engines don't have the problem of oil mixed with the gasoline. I have been trying to find the surface gap plugs on the internet to no avail. Basically, they looked like a conventional plug with the side electrode broken off and the porcelain filled the plug body to within about a 1/16th of an inch of the center electrode. They were a cold plug and basically had no heat range. You could pack the end with grease and the CDI would fire through it to the plug body. Hope that helps understand the CDI. BillRod
71 years old (April 1939)
Richton Park, Illinois
Just bought 1982 GL500 Naked 13,000 miles
Never worry about theory as long as the machinery does what it is supposed to do.
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06-19-2010, 6:10 PM
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Don in Oz
Joined on 03-10-2006
Melbourne, Australia
Posts 546
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Bill, It may also be of interest to would-be replacers of bike ignitions systems to have them realise that most bikes do NOT use a distributor, but have a coil for each one or two cylinders. The CX CDI has a rather unique all-electronic advance system, which is NOT easy to duplicate with any current system, except one that is under development by one of our CX BB guys in South Australia. He also makes 12 volt DC to 100 volt AC inverters to repalce the two coils of very fine wire on the old stators, and allow the use of the "battery-charging only" stator that the 1982 onwards models had.
That system still uses the CDI coils from the CX.
Don.
GL500I, CX500TC (2), CX500EC (2), 1982 CX500C.
GL1000, 1976 CB550F, CT110 (2), XL125S (2), 1973 CB175K6.
Kwaka Z250C1 (2).
Suzuki GS450SX, DR250SJ, GS125ESD.
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06-19-2010, 9:10 PM
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Cobram
Joined on 06-23-2007
Boston, MA
Posts 1,547
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 Don in Oz wrote: | | Bill, It may also be of interest to would-be replacers of bike ignitions systems to have them realise that most bike do NOT use a distributor, but have a coil for each one or two cylinders. The CX CDI has a rather unique all electronic advance system, which is NOT easy to duplicate with any current system, except one that is under development by one of our CX BB guys in South Australia. He also makes 12 volt DC to 100 volt AC inverters to repalce the two coils of very fine wire on the old stators, and allow the use of the "battery-charging only" stator that the 1982 onwards models had.
That system still uses the CDI coils from the CX. |
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There has been a CDI replacement unit that does this for years already. Ignitech makes an updated version of the CX CDI which doesn't require the HV side of the stator, so you can run the cheaper later CX/GL stators. The Ignitech unit is programmable and comes with the factory curve programmed, it only needs one reference sender to work. If CX BB guy comes up with a unit that's cheaper/better than the Ignitech, let use know.
1978 CX500 - I live on a one-way street that's also a dead end. I'm not sure how I got here, or how I'm going to get out.
Four wheels move the body; Two wheels move the Soul.
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06-20-2010, 3:23 AM
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Don in Oz
Joined on 03-10-2006
Melbourne, Australia
Posts 546
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Sorry, Cobram - I did know of the Ignitech unit, but had not seen much evidence of CX people using it.
Rayman is doing the same development - programable and not using all the sensors.
He has it on test with a few people right now.
The DC to AC inverter is a "god-send" to people who don't want the problem of failed high-voltage coils on the stator , and you end up with more 12 volt power if you upgrade the rect/reg unit on a CDI bike to one from the 1982 models, and replace the stator with a 1982 model unit also, remembering, of course, to retain the ignition sensors.
Don.
GL500I, CX500TC (2), CX500EC (2), 1982 CX500C.
GL1000, 1976 CB550F, CT110 (2), XL125S (2), 1973 CB175K6.
Kwaka Z250C1 (2).
Suzuki GS450SX, DR250SJ, GS125ESD.
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06-20-2010, 10:16 AM
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Cobram
Joined on 06-23-2007
Boston, MA
Posts 1,547
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Maybe they haven't caught on much in Australia, but on this list I know of at least 100 CX'ers running them. So far, so good, with apparently only one bad unit in the group buys we've had on here.
If Rayman comes up with something similar to Ignitech that is as reliable, works as well and comes in at a reasonable price, I think there will be plenty of OEM units reaching their useful life very soon. They're falling like flies if this BB is any indication. The stator swap is pretty much a plug/play, there are a few threads on this list about that. Problem with finding posts on this list is you have to use google advanced search option to TRY and find anything, as the search function was unplugged long ago.
Keep us updated, it would be wonderful to have another CDI replacement option, as it stands now the options are to roll the dice on a used OEM replacement that's probably at deaths door, rebuild the existing CDI (messy PITA), or get the Ignitech unit.
1978 CX500 - I live on a one-way street that's also a dead end. I'm not sure how I got here, or how I'm going to get out.
Four wheels move the body; Two wheels move the Soul.
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06-21-2010, 2:36 AM
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tim c cook
Joined on 06-19-2010
Posts 2
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Did a bit more web searching for Honda 500/650 CDI info and found a couple of schematics for home-built units, one has spark advance and the other does not.
This links to the overview page -- http://rajamolor.blogspot.com/2008/01/honda-cx-500.aspx
This links to the original factory schematic page -- http://rajamolor.blogspot.com/2008/06/honda-cx500-cdi-schematic.aspx
This links to the home-built schematics page -- http://rajamolor.blogspot.com/2008/07/honda-cx500-cdi-schematic-2.aspx
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Honda CX500 & G... » CX500 GL500 Tra... » CX500 & CX650 T... » CDI ignition theory
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