Honda CX500 & GL500 Forum

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12-26-2008, 7:53 PM sebring Joined on 10-04-2008 Mobile, AL Posts 94 What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Just wondering which grade of gas you find to be best for your CX or GL500? "Its true that hard work never killed a man, but I figure why take the chance" 80 CX500C 99 VFR800 R.I.P: 71 Kaw 350 Triple 72 Kaw 500 Triple 74 kaw 500 Triple 72 Honda 500 Four 75 Honda 550 Four 82 Suzuki GS850G 87 Honda GL1200 96 Honda PC800    Report

12-26-2008, 8:09 PM Blindstitch2002 Joined on 05-16-2007 Greenfield Wisconsin Posts 5,000 Re: What Grade Of Gasolene Do You Use? My bike likes the cheap stuff. I can tell you that some time this past summer or late spring there was a post that asked basically the same thing. The problem that came down was related to octane and it's relation to the other types of measurements of gas. The basic answer was that these bikes will run fine on 87 octane. I'll see if I can find the post. I haven't noticed much difference between using 87 or 91. 1978 Honda Cx500 Maggot 1979 Honda Cx500 Custom 1980 Cx500 Deluxe Buy HTTA Items Quick Reference Info    Report

12-26-2008, 8:14 PM Blindstitch2002 Joined on 05-16-2007 Greenfield Wisconsin Posts 5,000 Re: What Grade Of Gasolene Do You Use? http://choppercharles.com/cs/forums/38904/ShowPost.aspx http://choppercharles.com/cs/forums/29705/ShowPost.aspx 1978 Honda Cx500 Maggot 1979 Honda Cx500 Custom 1980 Cx500 Deluxe Buy HTTA Items Quick Reference Info    Report

12-27-2008, 11:12 AM sebring Joined on 10-04-2008 Mobile, AL Posts 94 Re: What Grade Of Gasolene Do You Use? Thanks, stitch. Both treads are very good. KC "Its true that hard work never killed a man, but I figure why take the chance" 80 CX500C 99 VFR800 R.I.P: 71 Kaw 350 Triple 72 Kaw 500 Triple 74 kaw 500 Triple 72 Honda 500 Four 75 Honda 550 Four 82 Suzuki GS850G 87 Honda GL1200 96 Honda PC800    Report

12-29-2008, 7:32 AM Sidecar Bob Joined on 03-02-2006 Kawartha Lakes, Ontario Posts 1,899 Re: What Grade Of Gasolene Do You Use? I didn't check the threads Stitch linked so this may already be there. Some years ago, on a different version of this forum, a member did "the experiment". He ran several tanks of regular through his bike and then, aftehr letting it run well into reserve so that any left in the tank wold be well diluted, several tanks of premium. Since he used his bike mostly for daily commuting over the same route he was able to produce mileage figures for both under as nearly identical conditions as anyone is likely to ever repeat. He noted no difference in mileage and felt no difference in the bike's performance. In other words, the only thing "premium" about it was the price. Mr. Honda ('83 GL1000/Dnepr) summer The Famous Eccles ('84 GX650EI/Velorex700) winter WHY I HAVEN"T BEEN AROUND MUCH LATELY    Report

12-29-2008, 9:04 AM Abes_CW Joined on 04-17-2007 saskatoon Posts 3,036 Re: What Grade Of Gasolene Do You Use? The only advantage Premium will give us is pre-detonation protection.  If you have no knock problem, you don't need premium. Modern engines with vvt and knock sensors will have a horsepower/mileage advantage with premium, based on the ability to optimize engine timing. Some believe Premium fuel is has more energy potential.  This is not true.  The performance advantage comes from the engine, not the fuel, able to run higher compression without pre-detonation. 1983 GL650i Had 4 CX/GL's at one point this year, down to one, next spring is another adventure! age 38 (29 plus tax)    Report

12-29-2008, 12:06 PM Graywolfs02 Joined on 09-08-2007 Coon Rapids Minnesota Posts 593 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? What ever 87 octane happens to be the cheapest in my immediate area. Bike runs fine on it and I get 45-50 mpg (local/highway riding) Greg Just waiting for warmer weather. 1982 GL 500I "Red" (Wing) 1978 CX 500 Now at a new home Minnesota Ride Safe, Ride Fast, Ride Far    Report

12-30-2008, 8:23 AM sebring Joined on 10-04-2008 Mobile, AL Posts 94 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? My old CX which has been sitting up for at least 15 years is just recently coming back to life. The previous tank I ran 92, and yesterday I had to go to reserve so I stopped a the nearest station: a Chevron. I filled it up with 87 and got back on the road. By the time I ran that gas mostly through the bike seemed to be running pretty good. But, what about ethanol? Chevron posts a sticker on their pumps indicating its use. I would have preferred to not use ethanol. I notice that BP/Amoco and Shell do not display an ethanol sticker "warning" on their pumps. "Its true that hard work never killed a man, but I figure why take the chance" 80 CX500C 99 VFR800 R.I.P: 71 Kaw 350 Triple 72 Kaw 500 Triple 74 kaw 500 Triple 72 Honda 500 Four 75 Honda 550 Four 82 Suzuki GS850G 87 Honda GL1200 96 Honda PC800    Report

12-30-2008, 8:29 AM Abes_CW Joined on 04-17-2007 saskatoon Posts 3,036 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Most of the gas up here is 10%, hard to avoid really.  I have no drivability issues using it.  Years ago, while in college, I delivered pizza with a Dodge Colt (1.5l fuel injected).  Being dirt poor, I'd put $5 gas in it at a time, and get about 100km from it.  Back then (1990ish) only one place had it, Husky, and it was advertised as 92octane at 87 price.  Using the 10% ethanol blend, my mileage dropped 10%.  It was a consistent drop switching back and forth.  I know modern E85 vehicles drop mileage almost 30% using the strong stuff. (E85 is 85% ethanol, 10% gasoline, do NOT use this in your bike) 1983 GL650i Had 4 CX/GL's at one point this year, down to one, next spring is another adventure! age 38 (29 plus tax)    Report

12-30-2008, 9:20 AM chicagorandy Joined on 05-28-2007 Chicago, IL Posts 414 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? ONLY 10% ethanol added gas available locally. I typically run 89 octane. The bike seems to like it? I know that I can't go wrong (other than wasting money) from running a higher octane. I guess once I heal and get back to riding I'll have to try some 87 for a tank or two and see what the bike's engine says to me about the switch. 2003 Ural Tourist - 80,245kms to date 1982 Honda GL500 Interstate 12,800 miles since 05/30/07 "Down the highway of life at smiles per hour, with special attention to ignorant and blind cagers"    Report

12-30-2008, 4:50 PM George in Indiana Joined on 03-03-2006 Posts 954 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Is ethanol really a local thing? That's all we've had around here since about 1977? When I was a kid, I remember how everyone was making a big deal out of how it was going to eat up fuel lines, destroy carbs and trash engines...nothing but a bunch of conspiracy bs. I'm always amazed at the amount of fuel system problems in this and other forums...I've never had to clean a carb in my life. That includes cars dating back to the very early 60s, motorcycles, lawn mowers, snow blowers ect. Last week an ice storm took out my power and my generator took right off with 1 year old gas in it. I winterize nothing and have never bought a bottle of Stabil. CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO '04 GSX1300R Hayabusa    Report

12-30-2008, 5:15 PM Blindstitch2002 Joined on 05-16-2007 Greenfield Wisconsin Posts 5,000 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Some people are lucky. Around here most gas stations have the sticker that says up to 10% ethanol. In other areas it's not used as much. There weren't that many stations that used ethanol when I lived in northern michigan. I seem to be pretty lucky to when it comes to gas. Often just drain an ounce or two and the vehicle fires over. I wish I had a set of jelled up carbs I could send you so you could see it happens. I'm pretty sure that as long as carbs aren't gummed all to hell they can find a way to clean themselves. Like gas additives or just plain being used. A river only gets wider and deeper with more flow. 1978 Honda Cx500 Maggot 1979 Honda Cx500 Custom 1980 Cx500 Deluxe Buy HTTA Items Quick Reference Info    Report

12-31-2008, 7:44 AM Sidecar Bob Joined on 03-02-2006 Kawartha Lakes, Ontario Posts 1,899 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? I remember buying gas without ethanol in it when I first got my first bike in '85, so I know it used to be available here, but they sold gas with lead in it back then too. I don't remember the last time I saw a pump that didn't say "Max. 10% Ethanol" on it. I remember hearing about the dire consequences that would happen to engines when they removed the lead and to carbs when they added Ethanol. I haven't seen any problems related to either in any of our family's vehicles. In about '93 I bought a '79 GL1000 engine & carbs. At the time, I opened the carbs up, cleaned them up and re-assembled them with their original rubber parts. I did not have them apart again until last spring when I put a Randakk's kit in. The rubber parts were so hardened that I had to break the o-rings with pliers to get them off. The Ethanol in the gas must have caused the rubber to become hard - after all, it was only 29 years old ;-) I was not surprised to find that a couple of the float bowl screws were seized and had to be soaked with PB and then loosened with an impact driver. This engine & carbs were in a winter machine for the first couple of years I had them, after all. I was, however, a bit surprised at how clean they were inside. During the 15 years I have owned them they have been drained for storage every time, but I still expected to see some varnish in the bowls at least. Every passage was perfectly clear and there were no deposits anywhere. I can't say for sure that this was the result of running with 10% ethanol or not, but it certainly hasn't done them any harm. Mr. Honda ('83 GL1000/Dnepr) summer The Famous Eccles ('84 GX650EI/Velorex700) winter WHY I HAVEN"T BEEN AROUND MUCH LATELY    Report

12-31-2008, 11:41 AM DavidfromWisconsin Joined on 03-19-2008 Appleton, WI Posts 2,458 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Bob, I also have never heard of problems with the Honda's valves from recession. BMWs are another story. They had depended on the lead in the gas to be a buffer between the valve and the seat. They had a huge problem with valve recession when lead free gas first came out. That is the valves would pound themselves tullip shaped and finally, if not taken care of, fall in behind the valve seat and then, with a full tullip shape and hit the piston tops with disaterous results. I had my airhead fixed when they started to recess and before they sank inside. The problem was more to deal with the valve seats being too hard rather than the vlaves being too soft. David From Wisconsin ... R80Dave '82 GL500I alias Candy '82 GL500I alias Candy II '00 BMW K1200LT & trailer '81 KZ440 (Wife's learning bike)    Report

12-31-2008, 12:59 PM Sidecar Bob Joined on 03-02-2006 Kawartha Lakes, Ontario Posts 1,899 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? I don't think it harmed the valves in the '68 R69S engine I had in my Dnepr, but I think I put less than 10,000 Km on it before the main bearing went and I replaced the Dnepr/R69 with a GL1000. Mr. Honda ('83 GL1000/Dnepr) summer The Famous Eccles ('84 GX650EI/Velorex700) winter WHY I HAVEN"T BEEN AROUND MUCH LATELY    Report

12-31-2008, 3:34 PM DavidfromWisconsin Joined on 03-19-2008 Appleton, WI Posts 2,458 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? 10K would not have been enough miles to do the damage ... but the older the airhead the more the problem seemed to be. Maybe the engine heads were redone before you got the bike? David From Wisconsin ... R80Dave '82 GL500I alias Candy '82 GL500I alias Candy II '00 BMW K1200LT & trailer '81 KZ440 (Wife's learning bike)    Report

12-31-2008, 4:19 PM Sidecar Bob Joined on 03-02-2006 Kawartha Lakes, Ontario Posts 1,899 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? The story I was told was that the previous owner was a German fellow bought a used police bike, started fixing it up and ended up bringing it to Canada in several boxes when he immigrated. After he got here he was too busy with his new life so the bike sat for years. 10 years or so later when he had the time & inclination to return to biking he also had the money for something newer & more complete so he sold it as a parts bike and I ended up having the engine installed in my Dnepr in '89. If the heads had been redone it would have been before '79. Anyway, when the main bearing went the crankshaft took out the generator. Most R69s came with 6V generators. /2 models had 12V alternators. But since this engine came from a police bike it had a 12V generator. I actualy found one for sale in the U.S for a ridiculous price ($700 or 800 I think) and found out that you can't even pronounce the German word for main bearing without a special tool. By the time I added up the bearing + instalation, the generator, the gaskets and all the other bits & pieces needed it came to more than the grand I paid for the GL1000 that replaced it. Not to mention that the 'Wing was newer, more modern and you can get honda parts everywhere. But I do miss the Dnepr's reverse. Mr. Honda ('83 GL1000/Dnepr) summer The Famous Eccles ('84 GX650EI/Velorex700) winter WHY I HAVEN"T BEEN AROUND MUCH LATELY    Report

01-02-2009, 6:21 PM Old Okie Joined on 11-01-2008 Okarche, OK Posts 294 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Maybe it is just me, but I think these old bikes were designed to run on real gas. I do not use any ethanol. I do not check my gas mileage on the bikes and I do not ride enough for it to make a difference but my Chevvy pickup does run better and get better mileage real gas. 1983 GL650I Almost Running 1978 CX 500 1984 BMW R100RT 1978 CX 500 Nearly complete 1980 CX 500 In Boxes    Report

01-02-2009, 9:09 PM sebring Joined on 10-04-2008 Mobile, AL Posts 94 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? My understanding is that a given amount of ethanol will produce less energy than an equal amount of gasoline. "Its true that hard work never killed a man, but I figure why take the chance" 80 CX500C 99 VFR800 R.I.P: 71 Kaw 350 Triple 72 Kaw 500 Triple 74 kaw 500 Triple 72 Honda 500 Four 75 Honda 550 Four 82 Suzuki GS850G 87 Honda GL1200 96 Honda PC800    Report

01-02-2009, 9:59 PM Abes_CW Joined on 04-17-2007 saskatoon Posts 3,036 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? I think you are right, Again check the mpg ratings for e85 vehicles. Their ethanol ratings are way lower than the gas ratings. 1983 GL650i Had 4 CX/GL's at one point this year, down to one, next spring is another adventure! age 38 (29 plus tax)    Report

01-03-2009, 3:57 PM TwoW4B2C4V Joined on 11-15-2007 Posts 509 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Ethanol has half the energy of gasoline. So you would need twice as much to get the same energy as regular gas. It also has a nasty tendency to dissolve rubber parts and corrode metal parts. When the engine is cold, that falls to almost 15% of the energy you'd get from gasoline (it doesn't atomize or burn well when cold.) Ethanol mix is pure political pork barrel garbage, and we're paying a very high price for it. Remember that the next time you're swapping out a fuel pressure regulator or fuel pump from premature death in your car for the upteenth time. Please reply if you don't get this message. 01/20/13    Report

01-03-2009, 5:53 PM Sidecar Bob Joined on 03-02-2006 Kawartha Lakes, Ontario Posts 1,899 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use?  TwoW4B2C4V wrote: Ethanol has half the energy of gasoline. So you would need twice as much to get the same energy as regular gas. It also has a nasty tendency to dissolve rubber parts and corrode metal parts.  Sidecar Bob wrote: I remember buying gas without ethanol in it when I first got my first bike in '85, so I know it used to be available here, but they sold gas with lead in it back then too. I don't remember the last time I saw a pump that didn't say "Max. 10% Ethanol" on it. I remember hearing about the dire consequences that would happen to engines when they removed the lead and to carbs when they added Ethanol. I haven't seen any problems related to either in any of our family's vehicles. In about '93 I bought a '79 GL1000 engine & carbs. At the time, I opened the carbs up, cleaned them up and re-assembled them with their original rubber parts. I did not have them apart again until last spring when I put a Randakk's kit in. The rubber parts were so hardened that I had to break the o-rings with pliers to get them off. The Ethanol in the gas must have caused the rubber to become hard - after all, it was only 29 years old ;-) I was not surprised to find that a couple of the float bowl screws were seized and had to be soaked with PB and then loosened with an impact driver. This engine & carbs were in a winter machine for the first couple of years I had them, after all. I was, however, a bit surprised at how clean they were inside. During the 15 years I have owned them they have been drained for storage every time, but I still expected to see some varnish in the bowls at least. Every passage was perfectly clear and there were no deposits anywhere. I can't say for sure that this was the result of running with 10% ethanol or not, but it certainly hasn't done them any harm. The methnol must have ruined the rubber parts - if Twowb4 says it does it must......;-}   Ethanol mix is pure political pork barrel garbage, and we're paying a very high price for it. I'll agree with you there. I heard about a study that showed that the energy inputs required to grow & produce ethanol from corn were more than the energy produced from burning the ethanol. But at least you don't need to put gas line anti-freeze in it in the winter ... Mr. Honda ('83 GL1000/Dnepr) summer The Famous Eccles ('84 GX650EI/Velorex700) winter WHY I HAVEN"T BEEN AROUND MUCH LATELY    Report

01-03-2009, 7:36 PM Cobram Joined on 06-23-2007 Boston, MA Posts 1,547 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? "The methnol must have ruined the rubber parts - if Twowb4 says it does it must......;-}" Glad you had good luck, at least once, but anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything. There's a big difference between a primitive carb setup and the high pressure fuel pumps, fuel pressure regulators, injector Orings, etc. etc. of later fuel systems.  On older vehicles, it depends on the make, model and year, depending on the application, you'll get: Galvanic Corrosion- ethanol acts as an electrolyte between two dissimilar metals. Deterioration or swelling and hardening of rubber components like fuel hoses, carburetor seals and gaskets, and fuel pump seals may be hardened, dissolved or distorted by contact with ethanol. This is a well known fact backed up by manufacturers research and bulletins. Oxidization Caused by Water- Ethanol holds water very readily and can expose fuel system components and steel gas tanks to rust. This is especially prevalent in boats and stationary engines. Fiberglass Fuel Tank Damage- Ethanol dissolves the lining of fiberglass fuel tanks, often depositing a dark "sludge" inside marine engines causing costly damage. Eventually, fiberglass tanks dissolve until they fail, leaking fuel.  This outgassing has been responsable for fires and explosions. Regular Corrosion, Pitting and Rust on Metal parts, such as in-tank fuel pumps and carburetor floats, many times show accelerated pitting, rust or corrosion when in contact with ethanol blends.  Certain Dodge intank components are especially prone to this. As for the lead in the gas, there were dire consequences for many engines.  Ask any machinist who's been in the business for a while. When you put a vehicle up for any amount of time, always run it till it's completely out of gas, and shoot some fogging spray into the intakes while cranking before putting it away.  1978 CX500 - I live on a one-way street that's also a dead end. I'm not sure how I got here, or how I'm going to get out. Four wheels move the body; Two wheels move the Soul.    Report

01-03-2009, 10:07 PM George in Indiana Joined on 03-03-2006 Posts 954 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? I'm one super lucky dude! 22 year old Toyota FI pickup (in family since new), injectors have never been touched, original fuel lines and original fuel filter. 19 year old Geo Storm bought new after I graduated high school. Used about 2 years, then I got a job with a company vehicle. The car is driven a few times during the summer each year so it always has OLD gas in it, on a really good year I might burn through 2 tanks. Fuel system is all original. Ethanol sure doesn't effect the exhaust gases either as the exhaust system is factory original right down to the muffler. No issues with the fuel systems on either CXT. Tanks are spotless inside. The carbs on my '79 500C were never removed from the bike and the tank on that one was spotless too when I sold it a few years ago. 1975 Corvette Stingray bought from the original owner over 10 years ago with 50K miles. She had all maintenece records since new and none of them indicated any fuel system service. I've never touched the carb and I can pretty much guarantee the fuel lines are original. Fuel tank is a bladder design and after being exposed to ~32 years of 10% ethanol it's yet to turn to mush. (ethanol appeared here in 1977). Company vehicles include multiple Ford E250s and E350s over the past 18 years. Closest thing I've had to a fuel system problem on any of them would be ONE electric fuel pump. I run them to 130K miles within a couple of years before they give me a new one and the old one is handed down to someone else. They typically push them 300K miles and with a fleet of over 40 vehicles, fuel system maintence/repair is about non existent. I have other vehicles but the above would be those treated to the extremes of non use, old age and new with high mileage. In my experience, the most reliable system on any engine driven item I've owned is the fuel system. Furthermore, there should be no excuse for any car having issues with 10% ethanol since 1980...if there is, that manufacturer is building substandard TRASH and deserves to go bankrupt. Also starting in 1975 all cars sold in the US were designed to run on UNLEADED fuel...once again, if there were valve seat issues due to unleaded fuel, that's from manufacturers selling substandard trash to the public. CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO '04 GSX1300R Hayabusa    Report

01-04-2009, 10:00 AM chicagorandy Joined on 05-28-2007 Chicago, IL Posts 414 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? +1 George. I have shared your mysterious 'luck' on all my vehicles, fleet experience included, burning nothing but 10% ethanol blends for a couple decades now. Must just be "midwesterner" happy fates? 2003 Ural Tourist - 80,245kms to date 1982 Honda GL500 Interstate 12,800 miles since 05/30/07 "Down the highway of life at smiles per hour, with special attention to ignorant and blind cagers"    Report

01-04-2009, 11:21 AM Sidecar Bob Joined on 03-02-2006 Kawartha Lakes, Ontario Posts 1,899 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? It sounds more like vehicles made with inferior materials had fuel related failures so the manufacturers blamed it on the fuel, then other people heard about it and blamed their vehicles' problems on the fuel too. Like I said: The rubber parts in my GoldWing's carbs must have gone hard because of the ethanol in the fuel. It had to be that - they were only 29 years old, after all.... Mr. Honda ('83 GL1000/Dnepr) summer The Famous Eccles ('84 GX650EI/Velorex700) winter WHY I HAVEN"T BEEN AROUND MUCH LATELY    Report

01-04-2009, 12:15 PM TwoW4B2C4V Joined on 11-15-2007 Posts 509 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? I was checking my backed up work emails, and I found a bulletin from GM rather funny in this context. I do some fleet work on my job, and we have a dozen or so pickem ups, panel trucks etc. Most are less than a year old. Seems that the vehicles designed around ethanol fuel have exhibited faulty fuel gauges because of, drumroll......the use of non-ethanol fuel. Generous Motors says: "The condition is related to excess water in non-ethanol fuel at below-freezing temperatures causing ice crystals in the fuel which interfere with the proper operation of the fuel level sender." Let them go under, and let the market sort them out. As for the other problems caused by ethanol, it's a function of design, materials used etc. It's not cut and dried as you may thing "oh, my fuel pump is still good after x years", well, you never know what caused what. Dissolving fuel lines in a car will cause a buildup of material at the valve or stem, causing failure which can lead to....? I've seen it first hand, problems common on certain cars in places where they contaminate the fuel with ethanol are non-existent in places that don't. Real question is...why we are still allowing the powers that be to lower our mileage, increase our costs, and risk accelerated wear and failure of our vehicles for a failed and flawed political boondoggle? Ethanol also generates more pollution per unit of energy than just about any other fuel out there. Those tractors, combines, distilleries etc. burn Diesel, and lots of it, to produce that "eco" fuel. Please reply if you don't get this message. 01/20/13    Report

01-04-2009, 2:21 PM Sidecar Bob Joined on 03-02-2006 Kawartha Lakes, Ontario Posts 1,899 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? So you have seen problems that resulted in parts failing when ethanol is present in the fuel and complained about it. Now you have heard of a problem that occurs when ethanol is not present and you still aren't happy. I wonder how many other problems occur more often when methanol isn't present? These problems are not caused by the ethanol in the fuel. If it was every vehicle that uses the part in question in an area where ethanol is present in the fuel would have the same problems. The problems are caused by engineers who have known for decades that some of the vehicles will be used in areas where ethanol is used and others will be used in areas where it is not but fail to take that into consideration when they design the parts. Either that or quality control people who don't perform adequate testing or management that insists on having suppliers deliver materials "just in time" so that if something does not meet spec they have to either use it anyway or send everyone home. Not a good way to run a business if you ask me. But nobody does. On the other hand, I haven't turned obscene profits for decades and then threatened to ruin the economy if someone doesn't give me a loan I don't qualify for. In the meantime, if you are doing fleet repairs and are finding these problems, instead of blaming the fuel (that the people who made the vehicles knew about before they designed them) blame the vehicles. Junk is junk, after all. Look for the brands that never have these problems and advise your customers that they can avoid a lot of expensive repairs if they switch to them. In fact, tell  all your customers about the design & production problems in the brands that commonly have failures. If everyone stopped buying the vehicles that are made poorly they would have to stop making them that way. Or go home and stop making anything. Either way, the junk would no longer be on the market. But do you really want that? After all, if you didn't have those repairs to do you might not have a job... Mr. Honda ('83 GL1000/Dnepr) summer The Famous Eccles ('84 GX650EI/Velorex700) winter WHY I HAVEN"T BEEN AROUND MUCH LATELY    Report

01-04-2009, 3:22 PM DavidfromWisconsin Joined on 03-19-2008 Appleton, WI Posts 2,458 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Bob, If he advised everyone on the really good cars to buy he would be out of the repair business!!! David From Wisconsin ... R80Dave '82 GL500I alias Candy '82 GL500I alias Candy II '00 BMW K1200LT & trailer '81 KZ440 (Wife's learning bike)    Report

01-04-2009, 7:54 PM TwoW4B2C4V Joined on 11-15-2007 Posts 509 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? You’re being too cynical; you have to be in the repair business to get out of it. My gig is large construction projects, bridges, dams, and at the moment a large oil project in the armpit of the world, doing my part to get a chunk of those petrol bucks back. The ostrich has stuck its head in the sand on the rest of this discussion, anecdotes offered in response to facts. All the stories in the world won't change the properties of ethanol and its effects, those are facts. Crux of the matter is that you have no way of knowing which or how a system today will be affected. Some Honda cars have excessive carbon buildup with ethanol fuels because of the engine design, which ones....naw, doesn't matter, if you buy one, you'll be lucky enough to get the one that doesn't have this problem. The only ethanol I want is the one I voluntarily buy, made from sweet West Indian molasses, in the form of a homogenous solution with lime and cola. Please reply if you don't get this message. 01/20/13    Report

01-04-2009, 8:05 PM George in Indiana Joined on 03-03-2006 Posts 954 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? "Oxidization Caused by Water- Ethanol holds water very readily and can expose fuel system components and steel gas tanks to rust. This is especially prevalent in boats and stationary engines". "Generous Motors says: "The condition is related to excess water in non-ethanol fuel at below-freezing temperatures causing ice crystals in the fuel which interfere with the proper operation of the fuel level sender." With facts like those, I won't go out of my way to avoid ethanol. CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO '04 GSX1300R Hayabusa    Report

01-04-2009, 9:00 PM DaWei Joined on 11-25-2006 Northfield, Atlantic County, NJ Posts 589 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? George, those two statements are not incongruous.  The ethanol allows the water, which does not by itself mix with gasoline, to remain suspended in the fluid instead of collecting at the bottom of the tank.  Straight gas thus protects most of the fuel system from the water by not transporting the water through the system - only the tank is exposed.  GM's point is that when the water is suspended by the ethanol, it doesnt't form ice crystals.  The ethanol acts much like its cousin, ethylene glycol.  Pox on them for using a sending unit that needs to be protected by ethanol - but their explanation is technically sound.  And a slap on the wrist to whomever allowed that much water to get into the fuel tank!!! Dave in NJ '80 CX500 C - needs Triple Bypass - but TITLED! '78 CX500 - Working on NJ DMV Title Where's the BIRTH CERTIFICATE?    Report

01-05-2009, 5:28 AM George in Indiana Joined on 03-03-2006 Posts 954 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Exactly, which means you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I think the only fact here is that "some" manufacturers are making up excuses for items that should have been designed properly 3 decades ago. Hell, most have flex fuel cars now that can run on 85% ethanol and yet they can't get 10% right? And now we've gone in the opposite direction where problems happen if you use pure gas? HAHAHA! :) Pure gasoline dissolves a lot of things too, I wonder how many decades it took car manufacturers to work that one out and get things right? Did Model-T owners have fuel delivery items self destructing? CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO '04 GSX1300R Hayabusa    Report

01-05-2009, 10:37 AM Cobram Joined on 06-23-2007 Boston, MA Posts 1,547 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use?  George in Indiana wrote: " With facts like those, I won't go out of my way to avoid ethanol. You're lucky you have a choice where you live, well, for now anyway.  Ethanol costs an average of $2.73 a gallon to produce, and has no net benefit whatsoever.  There's something just plain wrong about mixing this crapTastic fuel in with gasoline and forcing us to subsidize it. 1978 CX500 - I live on a one-way street that's also a dead end. I'm not sure how I got here, or how I'm going to get out. Four wheels move the body; Two wheels move the Soul.    Report

01-05-2009, 11:12 AM TwoW4B2C4V Joined on 11-15-2007 Posts 509 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? "Ethanol costs an average of $2.73 a gallon to produce," That price includes a $1.38 a gallon government subsidy. In reality, it actually costs $4.11 a gallon to produce before subsidies. Quoting Pete Van Doren of "Regulation" magazine: "If ethanol has commercial merit, it doesn't need the subsidy. If it doesn't, no amount of subsidy will bestow it. And that's the truth." Please reply if you don't get this message. 01/20/13    Report

01-05-2009, 4:40 PM Sidecar Bob Joined on 03-02-2006 Kawartha Lakes, Ontario Posts 1,899 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use?  TwoW4B2C4V wrote: anecdotes offered in response to facts. All the stories in the world won't change the properties of ethanol and its effects, those are facts. And yet you insist on telling us stories that none of our experiences corroborate. Have you been able to compare the results of running identical vehicles under identical conditions with ethanol & non-ethanol fuel for extended periods? With absolute certainty that the wrong fuel was never used? Anything less than a comparison of this type constitutes anecdotal evidence. I've said it before: If ethanol in the fuel caused those problems, those of us who live in places where you can't get gas without it would have encountered said problems. It would be inevitable if the problems were as bad and as common as you would have us believe. Are you sure those engines that had the problems were always operated with ethanol in the fuel? Or were they run on non-ethanol stuff long enough for the damage to happen and the garbage to accumulate and the problems showed up after switching? I have heard of that happening. One of the few benefits of mixing alcohol with fuel is that it mixes also mixes with water and thus allows the water to be carried through the system and burned rather than accumulating. You don't need gas line anti-freeze if tere is ethanol in the fuel. I can't speak for every engine there is, but I have seen what my carbs & valves look like after running exclusively on fuel with ethanol for years and they look a lot cleaner than most of the pics of disassembled engines I have seen. BTW: I'm not against having a bit of alcohol in the fuel, particularly in the winter, but I am opposed to wasting corn that could feed the hungry to produce alcohol that takes more energy to produce than it makes when burned. Mr. Honda ('83 GL1000/Dnepr) summer The Famous Eccles ('84 GX650EI/Velorex700) winter WHY I HAVEN"T BEEN AROUND MUCH LATELY    Report

01-05-2009, 6:45 PM TwoW4B2C4V Joined on 11-15-2007 Posts 509 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Your experiences are with what, 2 vehicles? In Canada that may seem like a relevant sample. But, alas, California alone has more cars than Canada has people. I can quid pro quo you 4 bad outcomes for every "good" one you cite. So what? I thought I had made that pretty clear before, maybe not. The literature, science and testing all indicate not all are as fortunate in their experiences as you. But now I too am convinced, the experiences of a guy who doesn't even own a car wins out over the rest of that egghead information. You've convinced me, ethanol has absolutely no detrimental effects in any vehicle or system anywhere. Well, maybe some of those boats, but who cares, I don't have a boat. Please reply if you don't get this message. 01/20/13    Report

01-05-2009, 7:12 PM dozer1 Joined on 05-26-2007 Frederick, Maryland Posts 612 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use?  TwoW4B2C4V wrote: But now I too am convinced, the experiences of a guy who doesn't even own a car wins out over the rest of that egghead information. You've convinced me, ethanol has absolutely no detrimental effects in any vehicle or system anywhere. Well, maybe some of those boats, but who cares, I don't have a boat. roflz, no offense bob. 1980 CX500 Ratbike "Stella" 1979 CX500 Deluxe(Parts) Dozer1 AKA Snowplow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TK5VY90ILs&feature=related    Report

01-05-2009, 7:55 PM sebring Joined on 10-04-2008 Mobile, AL Posts 94 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Get this: Today I stopped in at the same Chevron with my truck because gas has started to go up, and the Chevron had lowest price. While filling up, I looked at the pump and noticed that the "10% Ethanol" sticker had been removed, and another was put on the pump that said "100% Gasoline". Is this because of a winter blend thing? "Its true that hard work never killed a man, but I figure why take the chance" 80 CX500C 99 VFR800 R.I.P: 71 Kaw 350 Triple 72 Kaw 500 Triple 74 kaw 500 Triple 72 Honda 500 Four 75 Honda 550 Four 82 Suzuki GS850G 87 Honda GL1200 96 Honda PC800    Report

01-05-2009, 8:14 PM Sidecar Bob Joined on 03-02-2006 Kawartha Lakes, Ontario Posts 1,899 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? So far. contrary to the warnings, I have used fuel with ethanol in 8 bikes over about 20 years. My wife has used it in 6 cars/trucks over about the same period (the other one ran on propane). I have never heard of anyone actually having problems related to the ethnol. Believe it or not, I actually know people outside of this forum, and they do have cars/trucks/bikes. If you have any actual proof of a properly controlled test that compared the results of using fuel that contains ethanol with plain fuel in identical vehicles under identical conditions, show us. Otherwise, you are just repeating anecdotal evidence and, no matter how many people, cars, dogs, cats & cows there are in California, it doesn't mean anything. I'll say it again: The ethanol isn't the problem. I'm sure that a lot of the problems blamed on ethanol are caused by dirt & water that has accumulated in the fuel tank &c during use with non-ethanol fuel that moves downstream when the fuel is switched. I have heard of that kind of problem, but it was always blamed on the garbage that the plain fuel allowed to accumulate, not the ethanol based stuff that moved it. It's right up there with people that think that, since water pump seal failures in 25 year old bikes are fairly common, the water pump seals were designed badly. Personaly, I think that a water pump seal that lasts over 20 years is a pretty good design. I'll say this again too: If ethanol was the cause of all of these problems every vehicle on the road in areas where all of the fuel sold has ethanol in it would have the problems. Since the problems are relatively rare but use of ethanol in fues is relatively common, it sure sounds like the problems, while they might, possibly be made worse by the presence of the ethanol, are not actually caused by it. BTW: If water in the fuel is undesirable because causes corrosion inside carburettors &c, and ethanol in the fuel allows the water to be dissolved in the fuel and burned in the engine instead of staying in there where it can actually do harm, why would you blame any corrosion on the ethanol? Wouldn't it be more likely that there would be more water related problems with plain fuel, which does not dissolve the water and carry it through? RE Chevron's change to 100% gasoline: I wouldn't think they would remove the ethanol because it's cold out - it does act as a gas line anti-freeze, after all. Mr. Honda ('83 GL1000/Dnepr) summer The Famous Eccles ('84 GX650EI/Velorex700) winter WHY I HAVEN"T BEEN AROUND MUCH LATELY    Report

01-06-2009, 10:50 AM Abes_CW Joined on 04-17-2007 saskatoon Posts 3,036 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? http://www.daybreakfishing.com/ethanol-fuel.aspx e10 problems in boats. The problem with the e10 is that it can loosen sludge and cause filtration problems. If you always run ethanol, it's not a problem because the sludge and varnish wouldn't form in the first place. Stabilization is also a detriment, but not a problem with the fuel. If your gas will sit longer than a few weeks, put stabilizer in it. So yes, there are issues with E10, but really aren't a fault of the fuel. 1983 GL650i Had 4 CX/GL's at one point this year, down to one, next spring is another adventure! age 38 (29 plus tax)    Report

01-06-2009, 5:01 PM sebring Joined on 10-04-2008 Mobile, AL Posts 94 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? What is your take on Seafoam as a gas stabilizer? As good as Stabil? "Its true that hard work never killed a man, but I figure why take the chance" 80 CX500C 99 VFR800 R.I.P: 71 Kaw 350 Triple 72 Kaw 500 Triple 74 kaw 500 Triple 72 Honda 500 Four 75 Honda 550 Four 82 Suzuki GS850G 87 Honda GL1200 96 Honda PC800    Report

02-10-2009, 8:15 AM GIL490 Joined on 02-06-2009 Denver, CO Posts 60 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Hehe, my moped has a huge sticker on it that says Leaded Gas Only on it, it made me laugh. So i bought some lead additive/substitute because i could not find actual lead stuff, but then i later read that that was not necessary at all with them in todays age. The reason it gave me was because fuel quality was more questionable back then and there was a certain type of gas, I forget exactly what it was called, but that was really bad for my moped. My moped was 2 stroke and used the cheap stuff too. Some modded mopeds however could take advantage of premium when the compression was raised above 180lbs because it would be able to combust it instead of out the tail pipe. My buddy has an 04' Corvette Z06 and that thing act's funky with non premium in it.    Report

02-10-2009, 3:42 PM Old Okie Joined on 11-01-2008 Okarche, OK Posts 294 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? My CX has a 10:1 compression ratio, I consider that high compression. I use premium with no ethanol. The cost is not really a consideration at 40 to 50 MPG. 1983 GL650I Almost Running 1978 CX 500 1984 BMW R100RT 1978 CX 500 Nearly complete 1980 CX 500 In Boxes    Report

02-10-2009, 5:03 PM Interstater Joined on 12-10-2006 La Crosse, Wisconsin Posts 217 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? For my truck and the wife's car, that get driven almost daily, I have no problem running 10% ethanol.  Modern fuel systems are built for it and the gas never sits very long. It won't hurt 'em. But it is a different story for my motorcycles, and especially at the end of the season when you never know when a tank fill will be the last for the season.   I try to always buy my motorcycle fuel from a small local station where I buy the unleaded regular auto gas I use in my airplane.  They pride themselves on having fuel with no alcohol. To legally burn auto gas in my aircraft I purchased a STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) from an organization that has proven to the FAA through research and a lot of flight testing that unleaded auto fuel is safe to use in my specific engine/aircraft.  With the STC I can fly with regular unleaded autogas and save some $$, but the STC also specifically prohibits the use of auto fuel with alcohol (less than 1% alcohol is ok). When asked why no alcohol is allowed in the auto gas, the answer I have received from the STC holder is:  Alcohol attacks some seal materials and varnishes on cork floats of fuel level indicators. This could cause leakage of seals and release particles of varnish from floats, causing blocked screens in fuel lines or blocked carburetor jets. Excessive entrained water carried by alcohol could lead to fuel line blockage or blockage at screens or valves when operating at low ambient temperatures at ground level or at high altitude. Fuel volatility is also increased with the addition of alcohol in a manner that is not detected by the Reid Vapor Pressure test, which is used to determine if a fuel meets the automotive specification. For example, a gasoline with alcohol will meet the Reid Vapor Pressure limit of 13.5 psi but it will behave as though it has a volatility of roughly 20 psi.  (I take this to mean that the fuel system is more likely to vapor lock). Gasolines with alcohol will also phase separate. Fuels with ethanol left sitting unused in vented tanks tend to phase separate causing corrosion throughout the fuel system.  Phase separation also occurs as the gasoline/alcohol blend cools, such as when a plane climbs to a higher altitude or when stored in a cooler area. When water that is absorbed in the fuel by alcohol comes out of solution, it takes most of the alcohol with it. The quantity that comes out of solution cannot be handled by the sediment bowl and tank sumps. Furthermore, if the alcohol is used to raise the octane of the base gasoline, and phase separation occurs, the gasoline that remains will not have sufficient octane to prevent detonation. I know they are talking just about airplanes, but it is the phase separation thing that bothers me.  Just based on that I will avoid the use of ethanol fuel if there is a chance it might sit in the tank for awhile. On a side note, several years ago I bought a Chinese made small 2-stroke generator.  After fueling it with 10% ethanol it ran ok, but within several months it started to run poorly and soon stopped running at all.  I suspected the carb was blocked up and pulled it apart but found that it was clean as a whistle.   What I did find is that a rubber diaphram inside the carb was all puckered up and swollen.  I ordered a new part and it runs ok ever since, but now I only run it on alcohol free fuel.  I guess they don't have to worry about ethanol in China! '81 GL500 Interstate '82 GL500 Interstate '82 GL1100 Interstate '99 Valkyrie Interstate '99 750 Shadow ACE '99 1100 Shadow Spirit I first hit the highways in '78 on a CB200T.    Report

02-10-2009, 7:46 PM George in Indiana Joined on 03-03-2006 Posts 954 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? My Hayabusa is 11:1 compression and cranks out 175 HP...it gets 87 Octane which is what the manufacturer calls for. Compression is one tiny part of the octane equation. 89 and HP starts to drop off. 93 and there is a significant drop in HP and 1/4 mile times. The HP DYNO RUNS were done by a group of guys on a Busa forum to prove a point to all those who insist on "giving their babies a treat" with premium. Here's some more earth shattering news for the primo guys...the CX TURBO bikes are designed to safely run off of 89 octane as per the owners manual. Eighty freakin' nine! :) CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO '04 GSX1300R Hayabusa    Report

02-10-2009, 8:09 PM marshallf3 Joined on 01-12-2009 Oklahoma City Posts 1,542 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? It is a very complicated matter that's compounded on a car yet easier on a motorcycle. I used to run a modified supercharged GTP and the one of the most important things was getting a cool incoming fuel/air charge into the cylinders. On a motorcycle it's much easier to attain this. 1979 CX500C ░░░░░░░ 96 & 98 GTP, 78 Chevy G30 400V8, 78 Gremlin 304V8, 65 Barracuda 273V8    Report

02-10-2009, 8:22 PM GIL490 Joined on 02-06-2009 Denver, CO Posts 60 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? I think my bro's car has knock sensors, so when you put in regular gas it will adjust it's ignition timing, but will also make car slower.    Report

02-10-2009, 8:27 PM marshallf3 Joined on 01-12-2009 Oklahoma City Posts 1,542 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Most cars with OBD-2 (around 1996 > up) will have knock sensors but it's up to the manufacturer's programming as to what their timing program is capable of. On my '96 GTP 3.4L (not the one mentioned above) it will actually attempt timing a bit more advanced than it could run 87 at then adjust back. If I put 91 in it it takes advantage of it and leaves the timing more advanced. The result is about a 10% increase in mpg. 1979 CX500C ░░░░░░░ 96 & 98 GTP, 78 Chevy G30 400V8, 78 Gremlin 304V8, 65 Barracuda 273V8    Report

02-11-2009, 4:52 PM Sidecar Bob Joined on 03-02-2006 Kawartha Lakes, Ontario Posts 1,899 Re: What Grade Of Gasoline Do You Use? Read this article http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=807373 The higher the Octane number the harder it is to make the fuel burn. In other words, when you buy a higher octane fuel you are paying more to get less. I'll stick to regular. Mr. Honda ('83 GL1000/Dnepr) summer The Famous Eccles ('84 GX650EI/Velorex700) winter WHY I HAVEN"T BEEN AROUND MUCH LATELY    Report

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